Magazine Feature: What The Best Do…That You Don’t
How is that certain players like Everett Carlton, Erick Wright or Kou Vang consistently make deep, top-5 runs? What makes them better than everyone else? Do they just run better every time?
Elite players can often come in different forms. For instance, Dan Harrington plays a much different style than ElkY Grospellier, but they are both elite. There is, however, something that all the best players do that separate them from mere mortals, they are willing to make plays that typical players wouldn’t even consider.
This isn’t Vegas, most of us in the region aren’t professionals. Most players have daytime jobs. Therefore, its much more difficult for that average player to grasp pulling the trigger on a strange move, because it might not work. Then they have to live with that result for the next three to four weeks until they play again. Pros will just play another tournament the next day – poorly-timed move forgotten.
Or, the standard player doesn’t have an unlimited poker bankroll. They have kids and a home. They don’t feel comfortable being ousted from a tournament in twenty minutes that they spent months waiting to play or losing a buy-in they worked all week to earn.
Probably worse than the fear of busting is the fear of looking like a donkey! Players who get caught attempting to make a play out of the ordinary are typically subject to ridicule from fellow players. Players that don’t understand level- two or level three-logic tend to quickly deem another’s play terrible. Just read my book “Poker Players are Narcissistic Sociopaths” for more on that topic. Did you like that shameless plug?
The point is, the best players are willing to go broke, even with garbage, if the situation is right. They don’t care what anyone else thinks. They know why they are making every play. They actually follow through on their instincts. They have an understanding of basic poker concepts and know why a particular play has become standard. They then utilize that information to create crazy ways to play hands. You can’t become a great poker player by playing standard poker. You’re not always going to be dealt big hands. Great players invent ways to accumulate chips, not by what cards they are holding, but rather by what cards YOU are not holding.
I’m about to tell you about a hand scenario that played out during the Pot of Gold tournament between myself and Kou Vang. In this instance Vang lost the pot, but how he played the hand, in my opinion, was genius. And he did what 99% of us wouldn’t have thought to do or had the stones to do. This is why we always see Kou Vang with a massive stack, he thinks at a different level.
I hope he’s not annoyed with me for sharing some of his secrets here. But I know the local poker community is fascinated with how he does it. So while the rest of us complain about being card dead and running bad, Kou Vang will be collecting our chips I’m sure.
Here’s the situation…
Vang had been moved to my table somewhere in Level 3. Fortunately for me, I have Vang on my right. He’s sitting in the three-seat, I’m sitting in the five-seat.
Not too long after, action folded to him on the button. He raised. I three-bet with QQ out of the big blind. He folded.
So we had that small bit of history at this table. Vang and I had played together a couple of times previously but nothing too extensive. Obviously doing what I do for a living I’ve stood and watched Vang play several final tables so I clearly know more about him than he knows about me.
The blinds are 200/400 with a 25 ante I believe. We all started with 20K chips. I was sitting at 26K, Vang with 28K.
Another player had recently been moved to our table in the nine-seat. He was a re-entry and talked a lot, clearly a loose cannon. We’ll call him Villain. Villain had lost a pot already and was sitting at about 16K to start the hand. He limps for 400 under-the-gun. As we all know, the UTG limper always seems suspicious.
It folds to Vang who pops it to 1,300. The four-seat folds and action is on me. Much to my surprise, I look down at pocket aces. With an UTG limper and a raise by Vang, obviously I need to raise here, I’m not looking to trap in this spot. I assumed if I raised the Villain would likely fold but may shove with some hand he was trying to be sneaky with. I didn’t anticipate him limp-calling a raise and a re-raise with 16K behind.
I decide to raise to 3K. I didn’t want to blow Vang out of the pot when I’m in position and I definitely thought 3K was enough for our Villain to fold. I wasn’t looking to play a three-way pot giving multiple opponents a chance to hit a set. If that happens I lose my whole stack.
This is where it gets weird. The Villain limps for 400 and calls the 3K re-raise.
Action is back on Vang. This is the move that separates the best from the rest. Vang knows at this point that I’m capable of re-raising him lighter than I would most players. I had already three-bet him once. He also knows that the Villain is not extremely strong at this point, likely 10-10 or JJ at best.
I’m guessing Vang believes I’m a solid player and capable of folding. Good players don’t bluff bad players because the bad players aren’t capable of folding, or don’t know they are suppose to fold.
Vang can fold here and only lose 1,300 of his 28K stack. But he has some good information to work with and there’s now over 8K in the pot. He decides to come back over the top of me to 13K.
I was pretty stunned and semi-excited. At this point because I have Aces, I actually put Vang on the same hand with AA or at worst KK. If I were to have had KK, I seriously may have folded here and Vang knows that, which is why his move is genius. Very rarely does a player with a mediocre hand have the stones to come back over the top of a player who just re-raised him. This usually only happens on TV when the players are 100 big blinds deep.
He made it 13K because its enough to get me off anything except AA and there’s really no hand the Villain could have at this point to limp-call 3K and then commit his entire stack with a bevy of raises going on all around him. Vang knows I’m capable of making a re-raise on him relatively light but also good enough to fold a strong hand. It was such a calculated move. This still leaves him with 14K or 28BB if I actually do have the one hand I can play in this spot. As a poker-rube, I love what he did there. If you don’t understand how good that is based on the situation, then you’re the sucker.
Now its on me. I was trying to determine if I want to just call – to look weak – so Villain may possibly commit his entire stack behind me or do I shove and get the Villain out to avoid him flopping a set. I tanked for a minute or two thinking it through. This is a key pot. I wanted to make sure I was getting every last dollar out of this thing.
I decided to shove all 26K. Like most, I hadn’t been feeling the run-good as of late so didn’t want to give the Villain an opportunity to catch his hand.
Shockingly, the Villain insta-called with his 16K stack. None of us saw that coming. Wow.
This now puts Vang in a very tough position. After a few seconds it was easy to take him off AA. He had made a great, calculated move that didn’t work. I know most of the time he would simply fold and move on with his 28BB stack. But the Villain keeps making things extremely complicated.
With the Villain shoving his chips in the middle, there is now over 60K in the pot and its only 13K for Vang to call. He has about 15K behind. Vang knows he has a hand that can crack ours and is now working the math, realizing he’s probably priced-in. Most players without KK or AA would just fold here and not even consider the odds.
Vang tanked for a while and reluctantly made the call. He showed 5♣4♣. The Villain showed K♣J♣. As hard as it would be for most players to get their stack in there in Vang’s spot with 5-4 (and have to show it), I really believe statistically that was the right thing to do based on how things played out. It certainly wasn’t ideal for him at that point but he had to take a shot at that massive pot for only 13K more when he would still be alive if he missed.
Obviously this was a dream scenario for me as they both had clubs. The flop ran clean, the turn was a King, Vang was drawing dead. I faded a King and Jack on the river to scoop a big pot.
Unfortunately for me that was the highlight of my tournament, it was all downhill from there. I grinded to about 30th of 170 before fizzling out.
Vang was left with 2K or five big blinds. He, as he always does, turned that 2K into 12K within ten minutes. The table saw the freight train comin. Soon after he exited with KJ on a Jack high flop to an opponent with QQ. Nobody was disappointed to see him go.
As fun as it was to actually get aces and win a big pot, it was exciting to see how the great players think at a different level. Vang made an advanced, educated move here. I’m not sure how many of the players knew at the table what had just happened but I certainly appreciated the poker that was being played. The best players don’t bluff just to bluff. They make moves in situations where they will win the pot a high percentage of the time based on information they have gathered. That’s how their stack size consistently rises. Not to mention, when a player like Vang actually does have a big hand, he gets paid off. His image gets him paid. If YOU bet, everyone folds, YOU get minimal chips.
Moves like Vang attempted don’t always work, but you have to be able to live with that to be great. If I have anything less than AA there, Vang will take that big pot down…and probably win the tournament.
Later that afternoon I was sitting across from Matt Alexander, another great player who also has an “active” reputation. Alexander sits down at the table and raises the first hand. Villain #2 shoves all-in over the top. Alexander – with a mountain in front of him – makes the call and shows 10-10. Villain #2 flips king-jack. The 10’s hold. “King- Jack sir?” Alexander said. “Everyone always thinks I don’t have anything,” as he scoops another nice pot.
April 3rd, 2012 at 3:37 pm
Hopefully this will get everyone to start 4-bet/calling off with 54s 70bb deep now that people know kou did it once haha.
April 3rd, 2012 at 6:41 pm
I think a much better play that gets the same result is reraising 2 to 2.5x his raise to 13k is way to much with such a speculative hand and would have gotten the same info with a raise to say 8500. I like that move hate the bet sizing and I feel is a big difference in betting styles Midwest vs West Coast.
April 3rd, 2012 at 6:47 pm
I disagree TB, he bet 13K to get Villain out, Villain had 16K total to start the hand…Villain should have folded. If Vang re-raises to 8.5K, then he completely prices Villain in which is bad and prices me in with any hand which puts Vang in a 3-way pot out of position to me at best. I thought 13K was the perfect amount. It should have made Villain fold and get me to lay down anything but Aces. 8.5K is really bad in that spot. 13K is the correct bet.
April 3rd, 2012 at 8:57 pm
Lol ok disagree to disagree. Too many depths I could get into here but wont. I like the article and I think it’s good to get different opinions on the hand, I will say though that you said you ha seen how Kou plays knowing this if your folding everything but AA when he does that knowing his range is huge you have a huge leak in your game you should know he is capable of doing that with top 20% of his range therefore you should be calling or 4 betting him light just my two cents. I wish I could get 70bb n w AA
April 3rd, 2012 at 11:07 pm
Great article Bryan!
April 4th, 2012 at 6:19 am
Great article for all the people who think poker is all luck and no skill.
April 4th, 2012 at 7:12 am
Very Very Interesting…..I seldom will disagree with Bryan…..But 4 5 suited and that bet style…Sorry have to agree with Todd on this one, While I do not know Mr. Vang have watch him quite alot, got to see him at Canatbury and his hole cards. His play was stillar…I would think this was a misread on POSSIBLE HAND Bryan may of had, and a raise based on position, and while this tpye of play can be rewarded, it is at best a low percentage hand. One of the two players should have been put on a pair, the other on over cards, this big a raise (bluff) with limited draws, I am not in favor of, BUT THAT IS NOT TO SAY IT WAS WRONG, OR TO TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM MR. VANG. it is my personal judgement that this style of play yields over the long run limited results, aggressive position bluffs at the Button, cutoff and Hijack, with very weak hands for draws when called will cost more then it yields. The real fact of the matter is that an out of position bluff from middle position is seldom watch for and will yield higher returns against seasoned players, it is assumed that betting from the middle requires a stronger hand….Wow that was three cents, of my thoughts…
PS…I am only talking tournaments here, I agree with the play for cash.
April 4th, 2012 at 10:42 am
This situation is eerily similar to a hand I had with no other than Mr. Vang in the Big Turkey Bounty tournament. I had AA vs. 5-4s, where we got it all in preflop. Left him with a few chips, soon to be hunted by everyone. I was sure he would be knocked out soon, but to find out the next day, he has won the tournament!
April 4th, 2012 at 10:48 am
So the bottom line must be, since we are all encountering Mr. Vang with all in situations with 5-4s, that must be his all-in hand. I think now I got him figured!
April 4th, 2012 at 12:37 pm
congratulations uncle muneer!!!
”Time to Exxxpand”…..
April 4th, 2012 at 1:57 pm
i love the play i love the bet size he is playing to win the tournament i think he has won a few. and i cant be mad at him if he cracked the AA cuz he pot committed himself and would be creating his own luck and sometimes you have to go with plan B and bink the bord if you cant get a player to fold. but in this case the AA held and he bombed off a few chips but those are the risks you need to take if you want 1st place wicth is the only place that matters.
April 4th, 2012 at 2:32 pm
Thanks all! Love the discussion. The intent of the article is not really to debate bet-sizing or the specific hand played, its more to recognize and understand what players who win more often are willing to do, that most players are scared to do or don’t consider doing.
April 4th, 2012 at 3:37 pm
I agree that Kou is one of the sickest/highest-level thinkers in MN, but this play does not totally exemplify his poker skills IMO (a drunk donk could do the same thing, although for different reasons obv). I watched the showdown part of this hand, and I was perplexed when I saw all the holdings. Thanks for sharing exactly how it went down, Brian. Obviously the purpose of the article wasn’t to debate the specific hand, but I still wanna chime in!
I think this early on in a tournament is not the spot where you should be making level 4/5 thinking plays against players who you are unsure what level they are on. I agree with Todd that 13k is too much; I think 8-10K accomplishes the same thing. But then again, these kinds of plays can be +EV because they could get Kou paid off in the future. Also, anyone chiming in his/her opinions are merely contributing subjective viewpoints, so there’s no definitive right or wrong opinions really.
Oh and btw…I’m 99% sure the hands were K10spades and 54spades. (I have a sick degen memory when it comes to hands!)
I love these specific tourny hand articles though. First Fox and now you. They highlight a specific point while showing a topical example.
Cliffs:
-Disagree with play (too early, not enough information) but Kou is sick regardless
-tl;dr
AGJ
April 4th, 2012 at 10:44 pm
^^^ agree with this
But if you’re planning to call the two all ins with 54s after making it 13k anyways, you would be better off just going allin instead in the first place IMO.
April 5th, 2012 at 1:20 am
i am not sure if anyone is planning to call two allins with 54suited. 4bet shoving 30k at the 200 400 level is horrible.
not everything has to be a mini raise, in this case raising 8k would be awful, if BRIAN FOLDS and villian colds the 8k, and he open shoves the flop you’re gonna have to fold like an idiot. At this point we are still unsure if brian is strong or not but villain is definitely weak. however this type of villain is unlikely to fold for another 5k ontop of the 3k. make it 10-13k and plan to fold to brian, snapcall vs the villain if brian folds. Most likely get it in if they are both are allin.
the term “too early” in a tournament is ridiculous, there is never a perfect time to do anything, no one knows when they will ever get a chance to win a pot again. although you may not win the tournament ‘right now’. at any given point if you win one single chip it will help increase your chances.
if a villain does not think at level 4 or 5 at this stage of the tournament, how is he suppose to all of a sudden think at that level in the later stages of the tournament ?
adjusting to opponents are key, not every situation, and every bet sizing is the same. best to adjust or put your 8k in the middle with very minimal chance of winning.
making non-standard plays out of the ordinary at any given time is not what anyone would recommend in the their books, in order to survive and survive as long as possible you have to be willing to die. big risks calls for big rewards.
key hand, and key example of someone wanting it more than others or thinking beyond what the regular-joe pokerplayer thinks.
nice article and i hope this truly open everyones 4 betting range at the next tournament
April 6th, 2012 at 6:02 am
fun hand… bet sizing in this scenario was not ideal… i strongly agree with todd, however ur going to have to adjust ur sizing accordingly to certain opponents…and also depends on what ur goals are..so no, both would not accomplish the same thing.
1. my first instinct was making it 6500 and fold to brian if he comes over the top- however,if brian folds and villain moves in, its going to be very hard to fold..
more than likely if brian folds, villain will just flat (he is 100% not strong). if he flats and open shoves the flop, i will have to fold a big percentage of the time.
2. another option would be make it 9-13k and plan to fold to brian and at the same make it seem as if iam commited.. plan to commit to villain (villain has no choice but to fold at that point). ( i seriously thought brian had more chips, he was the black and green chip leader at the time).
so both of these scenarios, i would snap villain and fold to brian..however 13k puts more fear in both of these opponents eyes way way more than 8500
3. folding and or flatting the 3k are not my options in this hand scenario….but lets not go into details with that
this is defintely not a misread on anyones hand or ranges, but more so one of those i know he knows, that i know and we both know situations….atleast thats what i think of brian’s game!
of course i didnot predict the both of them pushing their chips in the middle, and definitely wasnt planning to call off both of their all ins, shoving 30k at 200-400 stage is horrendous and suicidal
of course both of these guys have me beat and one guy is put on a pair and another on two high cards…lol, and of course it yields limited results when called over the long haul… however u dont have to play with the percentages of hand vs hand but rather the number of percentages expected value on both successful and unsuccessful plays like these…think outside of the calculator
i personally dont think its ever too early in a tournament for anything and we also have plenty of info here to work with….
thx for the props and the great article.
go mnpokermag HAND DISCUSSION FORUMS in the future !
p.s. 5 bet lighter in the future
p.s.s i would really love to debate ahmed’s 56 shove and mollys aj comtemplattin’ call…..